Monday Morning Mentations

(a day late)

This has been on my mind for a couple of weeks and I actually thought I was just going to let it fade away and not write about it. I would have except for reading a couple of blog posts yesterday and this morning that have brought it back to the forefront of my mind and I’ve decided, for what it is worth, to give my opinion.

I’ve written about being Post Charismatic and about being cynical about Prophetic Words. That is the framework for my saying that I am more than skeptical of this “Revival” in Lakeland, Fl with Todd Bentley and the subsequent breakouts now other places closer to home. People I know are flocking to get in on this experience. I have watched some of the videos and have had mixed emotions.

Part of me misses that experience. As Kingdom Grace says, “I miss corporate expectancy and openness to whatever the Spirit of God might do.” I long to see a true movement of the Spirit. I like being able to see tangible things. But is this it? Is this a true revival? If it is not, how do you explain the manifestations, the healings?

This is what i have spent limited time reading about and researching. As I have been listening to Cindy Kunsman talk about spiritual abuse and the psychological tricks and physiological reactions on ThatMom’s podcast, I have wondered about one’s susceptibility to manipulation during these type of revival experiences.

As a starting point, check out these videos of Derren Brown’s Instant Conversion Experiment as an example of how some of this works.

Notice that people are going in with an expectation. Just that alone makes one more susceptible to suggestion, to emotional manipulation, to peer conformity. The people in Derren’s experiment were invited to participate in a spiritual experience and those who attend these revivals are going expecting to experience something. This makes them vulnerable to other elements that can contribute to a false experience.

What about music. Music can guide emotions and thought. To this day, if i hear particular songs, I am taken back to either really good memories or really bad memories. I have to avoid certain songs and bands because I will immediately move into a very dark place mentally. Music has power to physically move people. I was in the marching band in high school. I can’t remember what it is called but it happens during most marching band performances … the band is lined out across the field and moves forward at the crescendo of the song. The flags are usually still and held out to the side in display. Each time we did this, the audience would rise to their feet. It’s very moving.

I began reading about this effect and found some very technical articles online. I am still sludging my way through those. It’s just fascinating to me to understand that music can physiologically manipulate an experience. If heavy, rhythmic drum beating is included, even more so. The videos that I have watched from the Lakeland and other places included stirring music playing, frantic drumming, even if it was totally improvised.

The yelling and almost physical confrontations I saw in the revival videos were disturbing. It reminded me of bullying, how one can force another to do something through intimidation. It’s what gang members do, what cults will sometimes do, what an abusive parent will do. The result is one will comply to the suggestion or request or demand but may not even realize they have been forced to make that decision.

What about peer conformity? Typically, a person doesn’t want to be the only one in a group not doing what the group is doing. Notice, the group experience in the Derren Brown videos above. Solomon Asch experimented with this unsettling trait as seen here:

My own earliest experiences with Holy Spirit revival had all of these elements. I went as a young teen expecting something to happen. Emotion was racketed up by the music. I went up front and was tapped and pushed and yelled at to receive the Holy Spirit, open my mouth and speak in tongues. All around me people were doing it, I didn’t want to be the only one, so I faked it and convinced myself it was real.

So, can there be true Holy Spirit Led revival? I hope so. I believe so. I am just not sure I have witnessed it. I found this list in the comments of a post I was reading about the Lakeland event and Todd Bentley. I can’t reference it because I didn’t note where I was. If it seems familiar, let me know.

What are the signs of a true revival?

(i) No human being is glorified. Only God is glorified.

(ii) There is deep repentance and people after repentance start reconciliation and restoration of their failed relationship. As far as the emotional aspects are concerned, people would in tears over their sins. There would be joy in the lives of sinners whose sins have been forgiven. People may see visions during this revival. These visions would bring only glory to God and not to any created beings.

(iii) The crucified Christ would be lifted up in all the messages.

(iv) Healing will take place spontaneously when sinners open their hearts to Jesus. No need to lay hands on the sick people. Even when ordinary people who are revived in this genuine revival would lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.

(v) The preachers become “dust and ashes” after the revival and only God becomes omnipresent and omnipotent.

(vi) It results in the revelation of the Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The following are the signs of a false revival:

(i) Man or preacher is glorified.

(ii) Emotions run high without repentance of sins.

(iii) In place of Crucified Christ, there would be angels, miracles of gold dust, etc.

(iv) Physical healing does take place without spiritual healing. Preachers have to use all his psychic powers by laying their hands on the sick people or by “impartation”. There are powers from the other world present during such meetings for healing the sick.

(v) The preacher or the leaders become popular.

(vi) It results in the revelation of another Jesus i.e. Jesus of America or Jesus of India, and not the Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

As Brother Maynard notes,

But here’s the thing. This was not the case with the major revivals of old. Manifestations were downplayed, as was even the visible moving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the focus, and his works in the lives of common folk was the goal and the cause for hope and rejoicing. Not open visions of heaven by spokespersons. And not outlandish claims of visiting Paul in the third heaven where he lives in a cabin and tells visitors that he co-authored the book of Hebrews with Abraham the patriarch. Angels were not the focus, nor were miraculous healings, large offerings, or claims of strange supernatural occurrences. David Brainerd saw some significant instances of the Holy Spirit meddling in natural affairs, yet it barely gets a mention in his journal.

Personally, I would be much more likely to believe a movement of the Holy Spirit if everyone was selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. I think I’d like to see some documented proof of those healings as well.

It is not my goal to try and disprove a ministry or movement. I don’t have that much time but I will say that what I am reading while I am doing the bit of research I can, is profoundly troubling. We must exercise our discernment and reason in these matters. Do the research for yourself.

One of the things that I have discovered and like about the United Methodist is the Wesleyan Quadilateral.

Upon examination of Wesley’s work, Outler theorized that Wesley used four different sources in coming to theological conclusions. The four sources are:

• Scripture – the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
• Tradition – the two millennia history of the Christian Church
• Reason – rational thinking and sensible interpretation
• Experience – a Christian’s personal and communal journey in Christ

In practice, at least one of the Wesleyan denominations, The United Methodist Church, asserts that “Wesley believed that the living core of the Christian faith was revealed in Scripture, illumined by tradition, vivified in personal experience, and confirmed by reason. Scripture [however] is primary, revealing the Word of God ‘so far as it is necessary for our salvation.’”

Unfortunately, my witness of charismatic experiences have been heavy on the experience and a somewhat heavy on the scripture but with no balance of tradition or reason. There is a place to use our minds and as Robbymac reminds us, to be as Bereans:

1. The Bereans were eager and teachable, not judgmental, critical, or nit-picky. They didn’t want to miss what God was doing (as this newcomer named Paul was telling it).
2. The Bereans were NOT gullible and naively accepting anything that came their way. They kept the Bible as their source and grid for anything new coming their way, no matter what oratorial skills Paul possessed or how many signs and wonders he may have performed in their midst.

I need to be done. There is more I could write but the post is already so long. Honestly, I am ready to be done with this topic. Though I may have just written about it here, it has been sitting in my head for weeks. There’s more I’d rather be doing … like right now, a beautiful day is calling me to walk.

Edited to add: Steve totally called me out!!! LOLOL!! Actually his post about The New Charismatics is referenced in Brother Maynard’s post I link to above. I read it and all I can say is that what he brings attention to requires another whole level of reasoning! Steve makes a great point here:

I guess what I’m really asking is: Does God really want us to spend time and energy pursuing ecstatic spiritual experiences like “tokin’ the Ghost”? Is that part of the missio dei? Is this what the message of “the kingdom of God” is really about? Or is it even part of the “inbreaking” of God’s kingdom? I have to say: No, no, no, and, uhh, I don’t know, but I don’t think so. It’s just so far outside my understanding of God based on Scripture and personal faith experience.

~~ Grace and Peace ~~

---

Related Tags: post charismatic, prophetic words, Lakeland revival, Todd Bentley, Kingdom Grace, Cindy Kunsman, ThatMom podcast, Derren Brown, Peer Conformity, Solomon Asch, Revival, Brother Maynard, Wesleyan Quadilateral, Robby McAlpine, Steve Knight

~ by Cynthia on May 13, 2008.